Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.Would we appreciate the redemptive act of Christ more if we understood that He not only gave His body(blood) a sacrifice for sin …but that He also gave His sinless soul a ransom for our sin. I don’t know the location of the ’grave of the wicked, and the rich’ . But it is a place outside of God’s presence. A place of darkness for all who are forsaken by the Father. While in that place Christ felt the full desolation of the wicked. He felt His soul without Life, without Light, without Love. He felt damnation! We can
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
never, in our farthest imaginations, grasp the vileness of being totally removed from the light and presence of almighty God. CHRIST DID THAT FOR US! He submitted to the vileness of being separated from Holiness, Light, Love, Peace. As His soul experienced the desolation reserved for the wicked, our Redeemer’s desolate cry rose from deep within His soul and the words loudly screamed forth….”My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” As surely as He resurrected to Life eternal, He gave His soul to spiritual Death for me!
A cross tells only that His death and bloodshed was by crucifixion. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal through the Word the depth of terrors suffered by Christ before and during His ‘appointed’ spiritual Death to annul the ‘appointed’ death sentence on our souls. Though Paul affirms that we ‘glory in the cross’….he in no way contradicted Isaiah’s prophecy about the redemptive death of christ. We are, indeed, ‘boughtT’ with the price of Christ body, blood, and soul….and we, indeed, are no longer our own. We are vessels purchased by the price of Christ’s soul who bore Death in our place.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath born our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgement: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors
THE FAITH OF CHRIST: Ps 16: 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither will thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption
Mark 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors 33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Redemption –its definition and description cannot be contained in the word itself, as the redemption through Christ, is beyond ability to relate to and place within a framework in order to foster meaning of it.
Thank you so much for your port. WOW!
Hi, marycoxpace. Thanks for visiting. You are often on my heart. And as I think of your physical condition, your sweet overcoming spirit…the Holy Spirit just takes all that right on up to the Father…as prayer. You are, indeed, NOT handicapped
. The inner Mary is whole and well. Many who have normal physical bodies oftentimes don’t use them to the fullest because the inner man is ‘handicapped.’
Concerning Redemption. Oh…my. You are so right! It’s meaning is outside our ability to truly know and understand its depth. “Love never fails!’
Carolyn
Your interpretation of the atonement does not fit the old testament type, you are in essense saying that Christ became a sinner and redemption was purchased in hell rather than on the cross. The sacrifices of old represented or pointed to the death of christ and that he would shed his blood for sinners. Also, what you are teaching contradicts 1 peter 2:24 24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Additionally, Peter 1:18-19 says Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Our salvation is through faith in his death at Calvary, that is what the scripture says. Why do you feel the need to go beyond what the word of God says?
Thanks for visiting Aw. We have to rightly divide the Word. So we can’t leave off Isaiah’s clear description of Christ’s death. Concerning hell…I quoted David’s words. I don’t know where the ‘grave’ of the wicked is located. But I do know it is a place of vile desolation…evil…darkness…depravation….a place totally opposite Christ’s heavenly home with the Father. Also, Jonah called it ‘hell.’ And Jonah’s death was a prototype of
Christ’s death. Christ said as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and nights…He would be in the heart of the earth for three days and nights. As I don’t know where the ‘grave’ of the wicked is…I, also, don’t know where ‘the heart of the earth’ is. He took on our flesh. He took on our sins. Adam was no deceived. But he became sin …crossed over to where Eve was…and trusted God to redeem them both…back to Himself. As Adam became sin for Eve…so did Christ become sin for his Bride. Adam was a type of Christ….pointing to things to come. Jonah was a type of Christ…pointing to things to come. Jonah gave himself to save the men aboard the ship. God caused Jonah to be swallowed (very dark inside that belly) and to be carried way..way..down…down to the bottom of the mountains. Jonah died physically. While his body was drowned, his soul which is eternal, cried out to God in anguish at being cast out of God’s sight…in ‘hell’ Jonah called it. Then he praised God for the redemption he knew would come. He acknowled his truth in the faithfulness of God.
Tradition says Christ died a physical death only. But the world clearly says otherwise.
Again, thanks for visiting.
Hello Internet Elias -another nice post, thank you.
But I think you made a typo at the end of your response above -I think you meant “the Word clearly says otherwise” not “the world”?
I can think of another verse to back up your point, that Christ didn’t just suffer externally, but internally: “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. Mark 14:34 NIV
Thank you, Ken. I, indeed, intended to say the ‘Word’ rather than ‘world.’ Thanks. Quiet a difference in those two words
Internet elias,
I do not believe that you have proven your interpretation of the scripture, all through the Bible we are told that it is death and more particularly the death of Christ on the cross that atoned for all sin. When Jesus said that it was finished, it was indeed finished, sin had been atoned for, the veil of the temple was rent signifying that the way to God was open to humanity. The difference in Christs death from a normal person is that Christ was perfect, innocent, without sin and therefore that in itself made his death even more horrible and for the moment when God the Father turned away from Jesus and separated himself, that certainly played a part in it, but to go as far as you are going is unscriptural. In the Old Testament, what was sprinkled on the mercy seat once a year for the great day of atonement, it was the blood. Your teaching is along the lines of gnosticism. We are saved through Faith in Jesus Christ and what he did at calvary, why do you feel the need to go beyond that, his physical death and separation from the Father those moments on the cross was enough and affirmed by him saying “it is finished”, that is what the Bible says but according to you it continued even after the grave and that is not what my bible says, he becam sin “a sin offering” for humanity.
AW…..the Word speaks for Himself. He said it…I said it..then you said it…”physical death and separation from the Father’. And we agree, ‘those moments were enough as affirmed by Him saying ‘it is finished.’
Ashley, I don’t mind that you disagree with me. But I won’t participate in warfare. If you sincerely have a discussion point..fine. But if you accuse and indict…I’ll do as before and won’t ‘approve’ your comments.
I’ve always thought that the verse in Isaiah ” 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death;” was fulfilled when Christ was buried in the rich man’s tomb:
“As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock.” Matt: 27 NIV
Ken…thanks for dropping by. The general conclusions concerning Christ redemptive act is that the physical death which shed his perfect sinless blood is our atonement. AND IT IS! But as the Ten Commandments and Christ together are the complete Law……both the perfect/sinless blood of Christ which allowed His physical death..and the perfect/sinless soul of Christ which became ‘sin’ when the Father ‘laid on him the iniquiity of us all’….are our Redemption. When His soul became black with the sins of the world…and the Father could no longer look upon Him because of sin…..even the light of day became grey when God withdrew His presence from the precious sacrificial Lamb of God. At this point Christ is experiencing the horror He agonized over in the Garden…sweating as it were ‘large drops of blood’. He was about to experience much more than the Hebrew children in the fiery furnace, more than Daniel with the lions, more than the physcical murders of the prophets…more than any man at any time had experienced and returned from…total and ultimate DEATH.
When he said ‘it is finished’…. He is now spiritually dead, separated from Life and Light…suspended between heaven and earth as was the brazen serpent in the wilderness. The same serpent which brought death by its bite..would now deliver those who by obedience ‘looked’ upon it. As God brought spiritual death to Adam and Eve by allowing ‘the most subtle serpent’ to ‘beguile’ (deceive) Eve to accomplish the making of man ‘in our image’(‘now man is become as we..knowing both good and evil)….so now Christ would be ‘lifted up’ and give Himself to spiritual death to redeem Adam’s race. This is when he ‘cried with a LOUD voice, My God, my God, WHY has thou forsaken me??????’. And at this point, Christ did not KNOW why….because as He hangs there…on the cross…His soul laden with the iniquity of the world…even the knowledge He had with the Father…is also gone….as part of the spiritual death He is experiencing. BE CLEAR, even at this point…He remains the perfect/sinless Son of God. But the LAMB OF GOD is hanging on the cross…and is giving His whole self to death….as did each lamb placed on the altar by Israel for all those generations…pointing to the perfect Lamb of God who would be the final sacrifice for sin. As the lamb on the altar was totally dead…so was the Lamb of God….both body and soul. Matthew 27:50 ‘Jesus, when he had CRIED again with a LOUD voice, yielded up the ghost (his soul).’
Sciptures speak clearly concerning Christ ‘blood’ as atonement for sin. He demonstrated it when the killed the animal and wrapped Adam and Eve in its bloody skin. The blood He wrapped them in ‘covered’ the transgression of Eve. Adam was never deceived. He ‘became sin’ for his bride…as Christ would ‘become sin’ for His Bride.
IN acknowledgeing the scriptures..’poured out his soul’….’shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied’…’will come the second time WITHOUT SIN unto salvation…..and especially the Jonah scriptures which were a ‘sign’ of Christ’s death…..are part of the whole picture. Jonah’s soul was NOT laden with the iniquity of man. But even in the superficial ‘casting away’….Jonah body drowned…and his soul felt the bleak separation from God. Jonah said ‘deliver me from the belly of hell.’ And as Jonah was in the belly of ‘hell’ for three days, Christ said He would be in the center of the earth for those three days.
When David said, ‘he will not leave my soul in hell’…he was prophecying concerning the soul of Christ…laden with the ‘iniquity of us all’…placed on His soul by the Father. When David said, ‘nor suffer thy Holy one to see corruption…he was prophecying concerning the resurrection of Christ when His soul was brought back to Life by the Father and quickened the physical body back to life…before it had time to rot or decay…..as we know…on the third day.
I would never, never, never, ever do anything to diminish Christ’s glorious act of Redemption. But it’s in understanding the depths of that act..that my heart falls to the earth in gratitude for the glorious perfect sinless blood shed that allow His soul to ‘pour out’ for us….blackened with sins He never committed.
Like you, from my earliest memory the redemptive story only spoke of the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. But in my teen years, God began to enlighten my heart to the reality of His herendous death for us. And as He always uses natural things to show us spiritual truths….the lamb was used to point to the redemptive death of Christ. And because a lamb does not have a soul…doesn’t mean that Christ’s soul was not involved in the Redemption of man. His death was both physical and spiritual. Total. As the natural lamb was totally dead…blood spilled for sin….so was Christ totally dead, body and soul, as both His blood and soul were ‘poured out,;
Thanks for visiting. And I clearly understand your point.
Carolyn
Sounds good to me!
I think it’s very good for people to know that Christ didn’t just suffer in his body but also in his soul, and that He chose to experience in himself all the very worst suffering humankind can endure, both externally and internally.
Plenty of people have never suffered terribly physically but have been horribly tormented inside and Christ is there for them as well, so it’s very good you pointed it out.
I hope more people consider and learn from it.
Oh..Ken. I am so bought with a price which cannot be measured. And I am not my own. My heart if pricked concerning my sins. Concerning my less than full yielding of my flesh as the temple of God. I’m getting there with the help of the HOly Spirit. The flesh is only the carcase which holds the true man…the inner man…the spirit man (woman in my case). Satan is the ruler of the flesh and the more he keeps us distracted with the ‘flesh’…the less we nourish the spirit man through communication and fellowship with the Father. God is Spirit. ‘He that worships me..must worship in ‘spirit’ and in Truth.’
I believe that Christ called Satan the ruler of the world, or at least said that the kingdoms of the world were under Satan’s power, but does it say anywhere that Satan is the ruler of “the flesh”? “The flesh”, at least as the epistles use it, is also translated “sinful nature” or “human nature” as I think of it, but isn’t it under our control, to bring it into submission to the Spirit, rather than abandon it to Satan?
Personally I’m almost glad to have a “sinful nature” because it always gives me reason to be repentant toward God and to remind me of my earthly origin.
Ken…you are so correct. I left the ‘flesh’ statement wide open. It was certainly misleading. I agree 100% that the flesh is to be brought into submission. I was intending to describe the flesh as ‘of the world’ in its fallen state.
Thanks for the remind.
Carolyn
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